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Anita Posch: El Salvador; Does bitcoin fix this?

[00:00:00] It's all good. Yeah. I mean, Good that this experiment is happening there. And I think the population of El Salvador needs or, should get all the support that we can give them. but in the end, Bukele and his government could still like disappear with

[00:00:25] everything. Yeah. And, yeah. That's the risk and it's not the philosophy

[00:00:32] of Bitcoin to

[00:00:33] have a closed source

[00:00:35] wallet.

[00:00:35] And also in my opinion, not the philosophy behind Bitcoin to be legal tender.

[00:00:41] Today. I am pleased to have on the podcast Anita Posch

[00:00:48] this is her second appearance

[00:00:49] on the podcast she has been quite busy since her last appearance. She has traveled several times to El Salvador,

[00:00:56] published an educational book called learn Bitcoin and started a foundation., We will discuss all three of these topics.

[00:01:04] The theme linking these topic is does Bitcoin fix ? This Bitcoin maximalists often say, fix the money, fix the world. We will discuss can be fixed by having censorship resistant money and which problems are in fact more multifactorial. It will give us an idea of which problems depend on certain human traits and which depend on the independence of money.

[00:01:28] Anita doesn't see Bitcoin as a get rich, quick scheme, but the means of empowering people and correcting injustices in the world. She is more focused on its real value. That is why it is a pleasure for me to have her back on the podcast. Hello, Anita, how are you

[00:01:44] Hello. Thank you

[00:01:46] very much for the invitation.

[00:01:48] First I would like to hear a little bit about your, experience in El Salvador and on the back of your various travels there. So on the back of several, your travels, he wrote an article in Bitcoin magazine and what you have observed in El Salvador since Bitcoin has become legal tender.

[00:02:03] There you say some very encouraging things about Bitcoin in El Salvador, but you are also not so naive and blue-eyed either. So I have some quotes from your article, and then maybe you can elaborate on what you saw. So some quotes I'll have several of them here, so you'll have to bear with me first concerning Bukele,

[00:02:25] the president. You write in the article, Bitcoin is for everyone. That's my most important argument for Bitcoin as a tool supporting human rights to transact in free way, as in free speech and enabling financial inclusion of billions of people as such, I think it's a bold move and a great chance for El Salvador to embrace bitcoin.

[00:02:48] So you say that, but then you also are a little bit more critical and less blue eyed about the president. It is quite again, quoting your article. It is quite clear that Bukele is dismantling democracy very fast, and that's anti ethical to Bitcoin. You quoted Alex Gladstein from the human rights foundation, and then you also say, The staging of the president's announcement of Bitcoin city, which saw him come from outer space with fireworks, reminding us of Alexander, the great and Alexandria was cringe-worthy and shows how indulged in self love he is.

[00:03:24] His only goal was to announce something bigger than Bitcoin than the Bitcoin law. Then I have a few more statements that you write on the Bukele that let's stop there. How would you describe your you're more, uh, mature view after observing Bitcoin in El Salvador.

[00:03:46] It's difficult to describe because, um, I have very mixed feelings about that and mixed opinion also, because, on one hand I really feel that this is a big chance, uh, for Bitcoin and for the people of El Salvador, uh, to gain more independence from the U S because they don't have their own currency. They only have the U S dollar and are very, depending on the U S and also.

[00:04:13] On the inflation, uh, on the money printing of the U S that happened in the last two years. And, um, the El Salvadorians did not get any, uh, checks from the government, like the U S American states. So they, they lost more basically, uh, in value than U S Americans. And so. I really see it as a big chance to prove for Bitcoin that it's a neutral tool, a neutral, uh, form of money, um, that can help the population of El Salvador.

[00:04:50] But on the other hand, um, even before I went to a Salvador, I thought,. I what's my, what's my, what's my way to, to, to, to go about there. Um, because I knew I joined, uh, the german delegation, um, which is a group of people from Germany who were innovate invited by the El Salvadoran ambassador to Germany. To come to a Salvador, uh, to attend, uh, the adopting Bitcoin conference, a lightning conference and the lap it conf, which is the first and the biggest Bitcoin conference in Latin America. Those were all in this one week in San Salvador. and uh, we also had sort of a program from the ambassador to show us around and we also had some, um, appointments at the ministry of finance and other stuff in the country, in San Salvador. And prior to the journey I already thought so do I really want to be so close to politicians because bitcoin is in my sense in neutral tool. It's there to, to separate money from the state. Like, we had the separation of church and state a few hundred years ago. I mean, not in every country yet. We know. Um, and, and therefore, uh, Bitcoin is neutral and, I have the same attitude. I try to be as neutral as possible and not get into the like, say marketing, uh, campaign, uh, for a president or a for a politician of any color.

[00:06:36] I don't care. Yeah. Um, and reading about Bukele and, um, about, and it's not only El Salvador. I know that. And I know not very much about Latin American politics. I'm honest about that, but what I can see and what I can research is for instance, the human rights situation there and things like that. And. I can see and read in independent on various media, how he entered, uh, the Congress with the military to influence maybe a decision to get more funding for the military and the security services.

[00:07:18] And I can read about the fact that he's anti abortion, even in case of rape and things like that. And these are things I disagree with. I think these are, um, he's not like honoring human rights. They're these are basic human rights people have. And also the population of El Salvador should have many people then say yes, but these are Latin American countries.

[00:07:44] Everything's different there. You don't know how that. Yeah, but still, I feel there's a level that there are human rights. Those are universal and global. And if in some countries, um, people or the governments don't live up to these standards, then I think you can point your finger there. And that's why I actually didn't want to attend the precedent party at the end of this week or the Bitcoin and Bitcoin week in San Salvador, because I didn't want to get too close to, to him and to politicians in general. But then, um, I present published or presented my book on, uh, at the conferences and met with Elizabeth Stark, the CEO of the lightning, uh, labs of lightning labs. And she was talking the other day with the El Salvadoran education minister. And they were talking about the fact that they should want to do an open source curriculum for Bitcoin on, uh, the El Salvadoran colleges or universities and that they will use my book as a basic the foundation for it.

[00:08:58] And then Elizabeth said to me, you got to come tomorrow to this event because we are going to see the minister again, and then you can meet her and give her , your book. Yeah. I said okay. Okay. I go. And then we arrived there and it was a big stage. It was like a pop concert, you know, and most of the people there were, um, El Salvadorans and I guess,

[00:09:23] fans or voters of a president Bukele. And it was really staged like a pop concert. And I found it rather weird, um, how he was presented. That's not the way. And maybe you could see I'm conservative. Maybe that's the new way, how politicians present themselves. Um, but. I really had the feeling and it's just a feeling, um, that he just wanted to present something bigger, even more spectacular than the Bitcoin law so that that Bitcoin has become legal tender in El Salvador and Bitcoin city popped up.

[00:10:03] And I just thought a, I mean, Bitcoin city. I mean, I think it's a good idea to, to try to get money into the country with the bitcoin bonds. But building a city somewhere in the middle of the country, just to build it and to have this shiny new city, it doesn't help the population of El Salvador. It might help foreigners,

[00:10:30] like me or you are people who have money and want to live somewhere else to come to the country, uh, and spend some money there. But I'm not sure if it really is for the population that lives still very, very poor. Um, many streets are unpaved. Um, The, the education is very low there. And so there are so many things that you could do with

[00:10:56] this money. Um, and I don't

[00:10:58] think that, um, such a

[00:11:00] city is a good idea in my opinion. And I am an urban planner

[00:11:05] by

[00:11:06] learnt. I learned so, yeah, so that's the, my intro to

[00:11:12] El Salvador.

[00:11:12] Okay, because, Alex Gladstein, who you

[00:11:15] cite in your article, and I'm also a fan of his. In your article, you write glance, Alex Gladstein theory is that Bukele saw bitcoin as a way to get famous cheaply and to try to become the most well-known central American leader.

[00:11:28] And he has exceeded all of that within a year.

[00:11:31] Yeah, and I think he will succeed in end because

[00:11:34] if we, that is also what , Alex Gladstein is saying that if you look at the price of Bitcoin in the long term,

[00:11:41] then if he only manages to, to work through the next three,

[00:11:46] four or five

[00:11:47] years,

[00:11:48] he will win. I mean,

[00:11:51] if, if nothing bad happens, like the keys get lost or things like that, because I mean, the, the governmental app that Chivo wallet is completely closed source.

[00:12:01] Nobody knows really who the keys has. Yeah.

[00:12:04] I mean, um, so there are so many things that could happen and turn out bad, which I don't wish. Yeah. I don't wish them. Uh, but, um, That's the reason why I think it's important to, to voice those concerns too. And not only say hooray. Bitcoin is legal tender in the first country of the world.

[00:12:26] It's all good. Yeah. I mean, Good that this experiment is happening there. And I think the population of El Salvador needs or, should get all the support that we can give them. but in the end, Bukele and his government could still like disappear with

[00:12:46] everything. Yeah. And, yeah. That's the risk and it's not the philosophy

[00:12:53] of Bitcoin to

[00:12:54] have a closed source

[00:12:55] wallet.

[00:12:56] And also in my opinion, not the philosophy behind Bitcoin to be legal tender.

[00:13:02] Exactly. Because you

[00:13:03] develop that, in your article, , in your article, you, in Bitcoin magazine, you write, I was informed by a person close to the government that Chivo runs on Algorand rails. But without forking, the Algorand blockchain. Chivo uses its own Mongo database to store transactional data.

[00:13:20] And then later you say, that you had conversations and it appears that the keys of the El Salvador's Bitcoin are in the hands of Bitgo, the U S company. And then further you write why didn't strike or another Bitcoin only company develop the government app. If the rumors are true, it's because strike wanted too much money to develop the app rumors 300 million.

[00:13:43] And because Algorand or Cardano or Koibanx paid the government 20 million to get the contract. Why would an altcoin founder here you mean? I think Silvio Micali from Algorand, who believes his system is more decentralized. Why would an altcoin founder work on Bitcoin wallet?

[00:13:59] Yeah.

[00:13:59] I mean, it's difficult to prove anything, to be honest. Um, I can't prove. If it's on Algorand wrapped Bitcoin on Algorand or not, or if it's just a centralized database. Um, but nobody else can prove it the other way. So it's, it's a difficult thing to write that, but I had this information and, um, this is what I saw.

[00:14:22] Um, but I, I, what I learned from that is that. The the most maximalist Bitcoiners seem to rather not talk about it because I think they don't want to endanger the

[00:14:38] project. Like they don't want

[00:14:40] to say, it's completely wrong, done. Um, and wish. Yeah. because then maybe the project might fail and I think that's a reason why so many people

[00:14:53] don't say anything

[00:14:54] about

[00:14:54] Yeah, fake it til you make it right, as they say, right.

[00:14:57] Yeah. I mean, and in a way I, and fake it till you make it it's in a way also needed in sometimes, you know, it's a good hack in a way. Um, if you are able in short time to, to rebuild it and to make it right.

[00:15:13] but nobody knows if they are going to make it right in a way. Um, and they only had from June to September

[00:15:21] to build an app. But on the

[00:15:24] other hand, I think they would have gotten all the help from open source developers they could get, because everybody would

[00:15:30] have loved to help them to build an open source wallet, but they didn't ask for it. So,

[00:15:37] Yeah, it's, uh, I've heard other people who've

[00:15:40] worked there. Say in the short

[00:15:42] term, the reasons why you can be,

[00:15:44] a doubtful or cringy. But in the long-term he's nonetheless optimistic. The other thing that also appears from your article is it seems to me that the, the, the knowledge.

[00:15:56] People about Bitcoin and the quality of the applications vary, according to where you are in El Salvador. For example, I have the impression on Bitcoin beach, everything works well with lightning and somebody who doesn't live in El Zonte , uh, and might be using a Chivo . He has a lot of problems.

[00:16:16] Is that a little bit what you've seen as well?

[00:16:19] Yes. It depends on where you are. Because like in El Zonte you have

[00:16:22] since early 20 20, uh,

[00:16:25] Bitcoin beach, this project that is educating

[00:16:28] the people of El

[00:16:28] Zonte uh, and is instructing them and showing them how to install, uh, the

[00:16:34] Bitcoin beach wallet, how to use it.

[00:16:36] And the Bitcoin beaches open for us.

[00:16:38] Sorry to cut you off, but Bitcoin B12

[00:16:40] the

[00:16:40] Bitcoin beach

[00:16:41] wallet

[00:16:41] when source, but it's but it's reliable and it works well. It's not like Chivo

[00:16:45] Not a Bitcoin beach wallet. It is a good wallet. It has an interesting custody model. It has shared custody, meaning the people who use it don't need to write down their own seed. They don't have the sead, but trusted members of the community have. So, um, it's in between, you know, it's in between self custody and custodial, you could say it's right in the middle, maybe, um, where.

[00:17:12] Trusted members of the community in a multisig hold the keys for the community money. So because you know, people. Very low educational standard. And maybe they are living in places where they can't hide a seed or something like that. Um, you maybe don't want to burden them with that in the first step, you know, because learning about Bitcoin and using it and learning about lightning and how it, um, how you can get it then into us dollars and things like that.

[00:17:48] It's very complicated. If a. If you have never had, um, you never came in touch with it in a way, you know, because, um, there was no education beforehand in, uh, El Salvador. So that's the model that is used in El Zonte. And since early 2020, when the pandemic hit and there was a lockdown for six months in El Salvador and, um, Bitcoin beach , excuse me, the project.

[00:18:23] They donated money to the people of El Zonte which they in Bitcoin, in lightning, which they then could use, uh, to buy groceries and things like that within their area, from the other neighbors and things like that. And in. Other areas. I mean, as soon as you're out of El Zonte, nobody's using Bitcoin in my opinion.

[00:18:50] Yes. In San Salvador, you have the bigger companies like Starbucks and McDonald's, uh, they do now offer, Lightning payments so you can pay with lightning there. Um, but other than that, We, we drove with, uh, some, uh, drivers. Yeah. I like taxis and we always went talking with them and some of them said told us, yes.

[00:19:16] Yes we are. Uh, I'm using Bitcoin. I have the chief of wallet. I have another wallet. Uh, so, um, if you met someone who already had, uh, an open source. You were on the right path in a way. So these were people who had a lot of context with, um, with, uh, foreigners and Bitcoiners already. And, uh, they knew about the differences.

[00:19:43] And I was talking with a young driver. He said to me, you know, I'm very open to it. I think it's a great idea. I'm looking into it, I'm interested in it, but the older generations are not so much interested in it and they don't trust it. And I said to him, you know, that's basically. the same everywhere. I mean, that's also here the same. Yeah. So younger people are more open, older less. And, um, Yeah.

[00:20:11] so there are different stages I'd say. But I think if education on the ground, It's the most important thing. So if you have Bitcoin beach, you, we also have a Bitcoin se. No Bitcoin city in, Sonzacate , which is a small project, uh, educating people about Bitcoin, which started earlier than Bitcoin beach.

[00:20:40] And, um, those guys are two, um, young man from Sonzacate and they're already 30 or 40 shops in this town who, which accept Bitcoin and Lighning. And so these are, I'd say the, the areas where Bitcoin usage can be seen and will grow, um, even more when Bitcoin tourists will come. Which will come. Definitely. So it's one of the great things that Bukele managed, uh, is that, uh, I think the income or the, the revenue of like, uh, tourists, um, is much higher than in other Latin American countries in the last year.

[00:21:29] so, uh, that's a positive effect and I think.

[00:21:33] If these people learn

[00:21:35] or can see in one or two years, if they managed to hold a little bit of their Satoshis, um, the they will

[00:21:42] see that the money grows and nobody can take it away from them if they are using open source wallets.

[00:21:48] So

[00:21:48] I think

[00:21:49] I do think people are thinking that satoshis is because I always.

[00:21:53] So at the house, you know what? That's great people, uh, you know, poor people

[00:21:58] will save poor people will save in satoshis and a little, little by little, become richer. But in fact, just saving money is already a rich man's game. When you're really poor.

[00:22:06] You can't save really

[00:22:08] Exactly. That's exactly true. They can't, they can't save. Um, and that's the problem they have. I mean, they don't have

[00:22:17] enough to be able to save, but even

[00:22:19] what do you want to do? If you can save $1 a month? Which bank is interested in you, none.

[00:22:26] Uh, and, but you can save $1 Satoshi's on your hand, on your smartphone.

[00:22:32] Okay. In a minute, we'll move on to your book and education, because as

[00:22:35] you've touched on, uh, for you, the only education that seems to really work as

[00:22:39] this sort of grassroots education, and, I think that's what you're into, especially with

[00:22:43] your book, but just, just to finish up with this idea of, uh, fix the money, fix the world.

[00:22:50] Yeah. While you were in El Salvador, , you were a moderator concerning lightning. , lightening can help creators basically that, uh, people can pay directly the content producer, uh, with lighting. And therefore you don't need to go through a centralized service like visa or, or sub stack water or whatever, YouTube . You know, we have the first real example of when Bitcoin really made a difference was when a Wiki leaks said, you know, why don't you Juliana thorns to protect them?

[00:23:18] Why don't you contribute? And Bitcoin was the only thing that the us government couldn't close down. They were able to close down the banks and the credit card companies. So. But I'm still always, I don't know, hesitant, like, uh, Roy was saying, if you have censorship resistant money, you'll have censorship resistant content because, the content publishers, I mean, people who have a platform that publishes content, they need to get credit card payments.

[00:23:45] And if the credit card payments can be censored, then they're not going to want your content on it. If your content is not. You know, it doesn't please the government. So it's, again, this idea that if you have censorship resistant money, you are censorship resistant content, but I have to say I'm always sort of, I dunno, suspicious of this still that you can change human beings.

[00:24:09] So would you have a tendency to agree with that. What can it change your, from your observations in El Salvador? What do you think it changes and what do you think it doesn't change?

[00:24:20] I think that censorship resistant money is very, very, very important for human rights. I mean, in of course, We have, we basically everyone, I guess, has a political favors of politically direction or people or what they say or not right now in case with COVID it's it has gotten even more. Yeah. and um, there are sometimes cases where you think, oh, it's okay.

[00:24:51] That there's the possibility to take that down because that content is not okay. Yeah. But who is to say. Which content is okay, or which is not okay. And as soon as you have banks or PayPal, or GoFund me and, and, financial actors who are policing speech, we are in a very dangerous place because the next day it's you, that they might not like and they are going to censor..

[00:25:20] And so I think, censorship resistent is very, very important for free speech for all of us. Even if we agree with, with some S something somebody says or not, because, um, yeah, as I said in the end, as soon as it's not censorship resistant, they can take you down too. So, um, and I think it's a very important human rights, but on the other hand, of course we have laws. And laws forbid or say, okay, uh, you can't, uh, like, uh, Do some one harm and things like that, and they can apply and they will apply.

[00:26:03] Yeah. And I think the point is you can't, you can't regulate people's opinions by law, you know? And so it doesn't help if it's not censorship resistent , that's my opinion. Um, and the same is with, with money in that way, you can't regulate the bad guys by law because they still do what they do. I mean, they, they get the small ones, but the big fish they do what they want.

[00:26:37] I mean, all those money laundering and, and, um, financing of terrorism or. Sorry, what else? Um, these are the big banks, the big guys who are doing it, And, they are getting away with it over and over again. And, uh, people like me or you and all the people who are listening. Have to be like really approved by a bank who is to say, yeah, you're allowed to get an account or not.

[00:27:08] And so how did we get here? This is the complete surveillance machine and, um, with CBDC's , we're entering a new stage and the government. Everywhere all around the world, they all want more data and they want to control us even more. And therefore censorship resistent money is the most important thing to have now and in the future.

[00:27:31] And that's my opinion on it. And you, you have to. To like fix the people otherwise in a way. Um, I think everything starts on the one hand with having a decent quality of life and not having the need to rip someone else off and also to be able to. To like, um, come to terms with your own self, like with who you are, what you want, um, what, what's the purpose of your life and things like that.

[00:28:04] And in general, people are not bad. They want to do good things with their money. If you give, um, a bank account to, uh, or, uh, to possibility a financial account to a women in Kenya or two women in Kenya, there are cases of that, where we have studies, where we can see that they will invest. They will invest

[00:28:28] in their small companies in their farming.

[00:28:31] Um, they will grow our savings for the family and buy things for their children and on and on.

[00:28:37] and on. So. Yes. I also think that censorship persistent money

[00:28:43] and free

[00:28:43] speech is

[00:28:44] very important

[00:28:44] yeah, you've done many interviews

[00:28:46] with people in Latin,

[00:28:47] America and Africa where they really

[00:28:49] need

[00:28:49] like Bitcoin as a means of payment. and uh, you're going back to

[00:28:53] Africa now you told me, so that was a little bit my conclusion. What have you observed? So you seem to say that

[00:28:58] it, at least it's helpful in, for example, microfinance.

[00:29:03] Uh, of local projects and are you seeing Bitcoin adoption by people? For example, in Africa, really making a difference, for example, in micro finance and local projects and things like that.

[00:29:13] I don't have an example of micro-financing, but maybe I even do like the example from Ms. Aura, from Zimbawe where, uh, we were able to, um, put on a donation campaign and, um, she's the direct office school, which had to be shut down because of COVID and they didn't have the money to start it again. And through the Bitcoin donations, uh, she was able to exchange that into us dollars.

[00:29:40] Oh, very much needed there. And to be able, was able to open the school again. And, um, there are also other examples. Like she told me, you know, now for the first time in my life, I'm able to pay my freelance in Kenya, directly with Bitcoin, uh, up until now. Um, they have a broken banking system. It's very complicated to get money in and out of the. And you also don't have basic human rights and free speech in Zimbabwe. So you need a money that is censorship resistant and also very private. And, uh, also that

[00:30:23] doesn't inflate like the Zimbawian dollar does. . Yeah. I mean, um, they have an inflation rate of 300% per year, I think. And, um, if you're able to hold only 10 us dollars in your, uh, Bitcoin wallet, then at the end of the year, you will have quite about the same, or maybe in two, three years, you will have 30 us dollars.

[00:30:47] But the symbolic when dollars are all gone. So, um, there is a multitude of use cases in many, many countries. And I think it's 4 million billion people who are unbanked in the world. and it's like about 80% of the population of the world or 80% of all countries are not fully full democracies. They are. of half authoritarian leaders, uh,

[00:31:19] sometimes dictate us or semi dictators sometimes,

[00:31:22] and people are not as free as we are here. And we always forget that. And

[00:31:29] it's basically for them, is Bitcoin for them is censorship and private money

[00:31:35] important.

[00:31:36] and you're finding that the education is not a barrier. I do these guys have their own seeds or they have their own wallets. It's to what extent is education too low or using Bitcoin

[00:31:47] a barrier?

[00:31:48] Oh, it's very, it's, it's, it's very important because there are a lot of scams, sadly. So many people get scammed because. Who can you trust as when you don't have a trusted source? You trust, uh, the friend of your neighbor. Yeah, but this might be a scam because you can't identify scams very often. And so. That's also planned for 2022. I will go to Zimbawe again. I was there two years ago and when I'm there, I'm trying to connect with, uh, locals who are interested in the topic and, uh, try to share my knowledge with them. And, um, of course I, I show them how to self custody, the keys, how to set up a wallet and how to use it.

[00:32:38] And they think. See the positive sides and the use case and what it can do for them. And then they go. To their families, to their friends and show them because they want to share this new knowledge. And that's basically the thing I'm I want to do like share knowledge, build breaches to the, the communities, the Bitcoin communities, all around the world.

[00:33:04] So that all are also, I mean, there are very, very clever people in these countries, but they need opportunities to connect and. I also plan to show them how they can earn Bitcoin already now, um, so that they can build their own business models on top of Bitcoin and lightning. And, um, because it's so important for them because they don't have jobs.

[00:33:28] I mean, the Africans, uh, the, the, the,

[00:33:32] average age in Africa is

[00:33:35] 22 years. Can you imagine? So there are so many young people, very

[00:33:41] many of them very well educated and they don't have jobs, so they want to work

[00:33:47] online

[00:33:48] and

[00:33:49] So your book,

[00:33:49] Is targeted towards

[00:33:51] people

[00:33:51] who know nothing, because you've written a book it's called learn Bitcoin, the L and the

[00:33:55] Thetis earn

[00:33:56] or

[00:33:57] learn Bitcoin. And it's your it's directed towards people who know nothing. And then it's a, how to book or

[00:34:02] a, that tells a little bit about your book.

[00:34:04] Yes, it's,

[00:34:06] it's basically both. I think it's the first book on the market that really does that, that on in the first half. It's about why is Bitcoin important? What are their reasons? Um, what, why do we need Bitcoin? What, what, how is, uh, uh, the Euro, the us dollar or the Swiss Franc? How are they made? How do they come into the world who is in control of it?

[00:34:28] Can they control it? What is the petrodollar um, and All these kinds of things, um, to, to explain why is there the need for something like Bitcoin and what makes it so special? And then the second half, since the book, it's a practical guide. Um, the goal is to lead people, uh, or to support them and help them to self custody.

[00:34:54] So it's from like beginners to using your first hardware wallet. So, um, the next step would be. Setting up your own lightning and Bitcoin node. But That's for, that's not in my book anymore. So be your own bank is not in the book. It's not described how to do it, but it's described how you can get your first

[00:35:18] Bitcoin or Satoshis And how

[00:35:20] you can secure them, um, with the

[00:35:23] seeds, what it is, and, and what's the best practices, um, in this,

[00:35:28] um, uh, situation and how to secure your devices

[00:35:32] and things like that.

[00:35:33] And finally tell us about your, your foundation. So you started a foundation and

[00:35:38] so what's the goal

[00:35:39] Yeah.

[00:35:39] . I called it foundation at the beginning. Now it's a, the Bitcoin for fairness initiative. And, uh, the goal of It is to, to go to, uh, three African countries and at least to Latin American countries to connect with, uh, Bitcoin communities there to bring their stories, their voice, um, through my podcast and my YouTube. Uh, to the global Bitcoin community and also if they want, and if they ask me, I, um, I'm doing giving workshops there and talks, um, exactly about how to self custody, Bitcoin, and why they might need Bitcoin. And. Yes, I that's, that's basically the idea behind this initiative. And also too, if people are interested in contributing, like, , maybe they can do something for the people that I meet or, I'm definitely going to set up,

[00:36:40] uh, different donation possibilities

[00:36:43] to send Bitcoin to this, um, community.

[00:36:47] So that that's the goal of the

[00:36:49] initiative to, uh, connect and share knowledge.

[00:36:53] Basically

[00:36:53] Fine. All right. Totally. It was a great to

[00:36:56] hear from you. Let me wrap it up with a few rapid fire questions like we did last time, but

[00:37:01] I'll ask you different ones. So great piece of advice that you received in

[00:37:04] life that helps you and who gave it to

[00:37:06] you?

[00:37:09] always try to stay independent.

[00:37:11] That was my mother.

[00:37:13] Okay.

[00:37:14] Don't be dependent on a man.

[00:37:17] I did the best book you ever read. And why was it important for you?

[00:37:21] I, I struggled with this

[00:37:23] question, but, uh, one of those books is from Jack Canfield, the success

[00:37:28] principles.

[00:37:29] Ah, and what are some of the principles. Do you remember?

[00:37:33] one of the principles is you need goals in your life, otherwise you end up anywhere. And, um, he has a, a framework of like, uh, envisioning the future,

[00:37:46] uh, where you want to be in the

[00:37:48] next five to 10 years. And I have to say I did that like five or

[00:37:53] six years ago, or maybe a little more. And I'm quite there where I want it to be back

[00:37:59] then.

[00:38:00] So I, this, this really

[00:38:02] I agree. Your, your brain is like a magnet. You end up to what you're thinking about. You think about something and

[00:38:08] exactly.

[00:38:09] to end up there. I agree. Finally, best favorite movies. You can give me several if you want.

[00:38:16] Uh, I'm

[00:38:17] not so much a list person, you. know?

[00:38:20] Um, I mean, I, like, I can't even remember. I

[00:38:23] liked the Matrixx very much. I'm not sure if I, uh, I liked the new

[00:38:27] version of it. I haven't seen it yet. So I actually, I don't have things

[00:38:32] like that.

[00:38:32] Alright. Okay. Um, Anita was a pleasure to speak to you. So tell us, we'll put it in the show notes.

[00:38:39] Just give us the name of

[00:38:40] your book again. And if people want to contribute to your initiative, where

[00:38:43] can they reach you or get in touch with you or make a contribution?

[00:38:47] Yes. So my book, you can find it it's available in English, German, And Spanish at the moment, and you can get it at And then, uh, the best is to subscribe to my newsletter,

[00:39:01] which is at, where I always share news and, and the, if there are possibilities to

[00:39:10] contribute and things like that.

[00:39:12] And the

[00:39:12] Bitcoin for fairness initiative

[00:39:18] put them in the show notes. Okay. Lovely.

[00:39:22] Thanks for the invitation again. And, uh, nice to see you again. Thanks, bye. Bye.

[00:39:31] Currently, there are no advertisements on this podcast, but if you would like to advertise your brand, please get in contact with me the email is the Swiss road to

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