Vespene Energy - Burning Methane from landfills to clean the air, made possible by bitcoin mining
Adam Wright - 00:00:06:
The UN put out a report last year that says that methane reduction is essentially the strongest lever that we have as humanity to curb climate change. So from that perspective, effective coin mining provides this non governmental subsidy for capturing and flaring that methane to provide this economic incentive rather than a governmental incentive to mitigate methane.
Didier Borel - 00:00:38:
Today I am pleased to have Adam Wright. Adam is the CEO of a company called Vespene Energy. Vespene Energy’s mission has nothing to do originally with bitcoin, but they use bitcoin mining to achieve their goals. Vespene Energy burns, methane emitted from landfills in the United States. And by burning the methane, they produce electricity and they use this electricity to mine bitcoin. Adam will tell us all about this. Good afternoon, Adam.
Adam Wright - 00:01:07:
Yeah, how are you doing? Good here. Pleasure to be here today.
Didier Borel - 00:01:10:
Yes, pleasure to speak to you again. So, basically for the audience, can you tell them what Vespene Energy does, what their mission is?
Adam Wright - 00:01:18:
Yeah, of course. So, Vespene Energy is a methane mitigation company. We target municipal landfills as a major source of methane emissions. So firstly, methane emissions are terrible for the environment. Over a 20 year period, methane is 84 times stronger than CO2. So there's a massive reason environmentally to track down those methane emissions wherever they are and find ways to mitigate them. And so what we do is we target municipal landfills that have no viable use for their methane. We come in, we install highly efficient power production equipment in the form of micro turbines, and then we use that generated electricity on site to mine bitcoin. And so I think the key there is the onsite use. So because we're not dependent on a grid connection for the electrical power and we're also not dependent on any type of pipeline or external infrastructure, we're able to rapidly deploy these systems and quickly come up or quickly create a monetizable avenue for these stranded methane deposits.
Didier Borel - 00:02:40:
You told us methane, of course, is much more polluting to the atmosphere than CO2. But can you tell us a little bit how big the problem is? I think you're based in the US. And in the US. How much methane gets issued or emitted from all these landfills?
Adam Wright - 00:02:54:
Yeah, of course. So landfills are a huge problem, and methane is a huge problem. I think that the EPA, which is the US Environmental Protection Agency, they estimate that landfills represent about 17% of all US methane emissions. And that is equivalent to about 100 million tons of CO2 equivalent per year. So it's a massive amount of pollution that's coming out. But even worse than that is that these numbers are based on self reported data. And there's been a variety of surveys done via NASA and other entities that have shown that these numbers are actually underreported by a factor of two to three x. And so this makes landfills potentially the largest polluter of methane in the US. And globally as well. So it's a huge problem. And because of methane's sort of power as a greenhouse gas, the ability to come in and mitigate that methane as of vital importance, and the UN put out a report last year that says that methane reduction is essentially the strongest lever that we have as humanity to curb climate change.
Didier Borel - 00:04:20:
Okay. The other thing I think I went through, the anecdote that I thought was, like, funny and interesting is how the idea of Vespene came about. I think you were walking your dog in a park or something. You want to tell that story?
Adam Wright - 00:04:32:
Yeah, of course. I think the landfills and the fact that landfills produce methane, it's not necessarily a secret, but it's not really at the forefront of people's minds. You think about climate change, and you think about ways of mitigating climate change. You don't generally consider landfills in the equation. I mean, they're getting more and more attention in the media, but generally you're thinking about, okay, electric cars, or I'm going to put in the wind, or solar plants and these types of things, how we sort of figured that out. My co-founder and I. Exactly. We were on a walk. We were walking his dog in a park here in Berkeley, California, which this park actually happened to be a landfill in its history. So it was closed in, I think, 1970 and turned into a park. However, that landfill that was closed in 1970 is still producing methane today. And in order to abide by environmental regulations, the city of Berkeley has to maintain a flare. So it's basically a giant smokestack that's sitting in the middle of the landfill. And the only purpose of that is to capture and burn the methane that's coming out of the landfill. And as we were walking, we were seeing this smokestack, and we saw this shimmering heat coming out of it, and we were saying, what's that? Why is that being burned? What's the energy being used for? And that sort of got the gears turning. We were already familiar with bitcoin and bitcoin mining. We own a separate bitcoin mining company, and we're also environmentalists. And so seeing this landfill and landfill problem, we were able to put two and two together and use bitcoin mining in this application to basically provide a subsidy essentially for mitigating methane.
Didier Borel - 00:06:28:
I didn't know you were already in bitcoin mining, because what's your background? You're a mechanical engineer, I think it was. Can you tell your background and how the two came together?
Adam Wright - 00:06:36:
Of course, I'm a mechanical engineer. My background is mechanical engineering. My primary career was spent in ocean engineering. So submarines, manned submarines, and autonomous vehicles. I used to run a company that built private submarines for recreation, tourism, and ocean exploration. I also come from a long history, a long background of environmentalists. My grandfather started an ocean conservation company. I've always been environmentalists throughout my career. Growing up here in the bay area, San Francisco and Berkeley. I've been a supporter of bitcoin and it's social mission for a long time, but I always wanted to do something on sort of the intersection of bitcoin and environment and actually use bitcoin for an environmental purpose.
Didier Borel - 00:07:35:
Okay, let's get into a little bit why you think bitcoin mining is the best solution for these landfills. Well, one, I think there was a new law in the US. Recently that sort of forces these landfills to burn the methane, to not let it escape. And then a little bit all the sort of practical reasons of why it's better. Because as you mentioned earlier, you don't have to connect yourself to a grid to bring in energy. Do you want to explain all that a bit?
Adam Wright - 00:08:02:
Yeah. So let me kind of jump in there. So I think as a background, I'm going to talk about this from a US. Perspective, but it also relates, of course, internationally. So the US has 2600 landfills that are tracked via the EPA. And of those 2600 landfills, only about 550 of them are able to monetize their methane assets. And so typically when you do a project on a landfill, it's going to be in one of two categories. One is you build a power plant and you sell that electricity to the grid. And then two, you refine that landfill gas into pipeline quality gas and then you inject it into a pipeline. And so these two traditional projects are very infrastructure dependent and they really only pencil out for larger landfills that are closer to city centers. So for those of the remaining 2000 landfills, there's really no viable use for the gas because of their proximity or lack of proximity to a population center. And so for those sites, they're forced to either flare their gas, which is just burning it off and not actually utilize it, or they just freely emit it. And so from that perspective, bitcoin mining provides this non governmental subsidy for capturing and flaring that methane. It's important, I think, to provide this economic incentive rather than a governmental incentive to mitigate methane because it's very easy, as I mentioned, 2600 landfills in the United States, but hard to police all those landfills. And so there's a significant amount of landfills that are not abiding by regulations, either flaring incompletely, not capturing all the gas, or just not capturing the gas entirely. And so we believe that it's much more important from an environmental perspective to provide that carrot. So we provide a carrot incentive for landfills rather than the government providing sort of having a stick to force people into compliance. And then also we want to develop a scalable model that can be applied to other countries, not just the US. The US has a strong environmental regulatory body. Great. If we can deal with our emissions, that's fantastic. But if we can't, then methane is a global problem. If we don't have a solution that can scale elsewhere, then we're not really making a significant impact.
Didier Borel - 00:10:51:
The thing that's a bit funny is I think you explained that a lot of these landfills, the government is telling them you've got to burn your methane. It's going to cost you a lot of money. And you approach them saying, you don't have to invest any amount of money. We will come with our equipment. We will burn your methane, and we'll use that energy to mine bitcoin. And basically the paying of the sort of infrastructure that you are going to provide is going to come from mining bitcoin.
Adam Wright - 00:11:18:
Didier Borel - 00:11:20:
How's your conversation like when you approach your local utility or municipality and those guys probably don't know much about bitcoin and don't understand your project. What's the conversation like?
Adam Wright - 00:11:31:
Yeah, well, I think that these landfills are very cognizant of their methane being a liability. And so it's a liability both financially because they have to sort of expend resources to destroy the methane if they're forced to by the regulators or it's an environmental liability. We're able to take this liability and turn it into an asset. And I think the conversation is such that people the landfills that we've talked to in the pilot project that we have under construction right now, everybody is very excited about the prospect of finally being able to find a use for this gas. Right. And so I think there's sort of three ways that we look at it. So, you know, from an environmental perspective, obviously there's a huge incentive to go in and wherever there's methane, we want to destroy it. Right. So in addition to that environmental benefit, there's also this social component that we're able to provide a revenue stream that goes back to the city or the county or the municipality from which that landfill is being used. And then from our company's perspective as an energy developer and a bitcoin miner, we're essentially a power producer. And we're using this waste gas to power our systems. And so therefore, we have a very low cost of energy, which allows us to stay competitive in kind of a variety of different coin scenarios. But I think the other thing to know here is that I think we're not really a traditional bitcoin miner. There's sort of several ways to think about the company, but really the best way is to think of us as a long term energy developer and that we're using bitcoin mining as a tool or a bridge to a sort of a sustainable energy future. Right. So I think that the thing to know about landfills is that they're going to be around for hundreds of years. There's no realistic scenario that humans are going to be producing less trash in a fast or quick amount of time. And so from that perspective, we've used bitcoin mining as kind of this base, let's say, of a food chain or an electricity food chain that can come in rapidly monetize capture and monetize those methane assets. And then once you've got that base established, you can then add on these other ancillary uses and scale those ancillary uses at a speed that makes sense for specific sites. Right. So one example of that is vehicle charging. And so by having this infrastructure on the site and the bitcoin mining always providing this background of monetization. You can then easily pivot into vehicle charging. Whether it be fleet electrification. Like electrification of your garbage trucks. Or even electrification of work vehicles such as earth movers. Bulldozers. Excavators. All of these assets that are active on the landfill at any one time can then benefit from that landfill being electrified and providing that electrification infrastructure. And that would otherwise not be as feasible without bitcoin mining providing that monetized and that revenue sort of backdrop for that infrastructure.
Didier Borel - 00:15:04:
Okay, great. Thank you. You explained that clearly. Yeah, I think I also heard the anecdote that I thought was hysterical, as you said, that when you approach some of these landfill operators, they say to you, how do you know the bitcoin is in the ground or something like that initially? Do they have, like, a resistance because they don't understand it and it's easily overcome?
Adam Wright - 00:15:26:
Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I think that you're absolutely right and there's an education component that goes into it. Anything from how do you know there's bitcoin in the landfill? Bitcoin seems like it's a volatile asset. How do you know that you're going to be able to maintain profitability? These are all questions that definitely come up. And I think the way that we explain it is in the sense of just sort of explaining what bitcoin mining actually is and the fact that at its core, bitcoin mining is a decentralized data center. And you're sort of a bitcoin miner is essentially a decentralized auditor of the bitcoin network, and you get paid in bitcoin for your services. And so I think when you think about it in that context and you kind of relate it to data centers, people can have this much more clear understanding of, like, you're sort of processing data, you're sending data away from the site via satellite. It all makes sense to them and they're able to sort of contextualize it a lot better. I think that although mining is actually what's happening in terms of unlocking new bitcoin in circulation, I think that and it's harkens back to bitcoin being a totally decentralized monetary network, is that bitcoin doesn't have a marketing arm. If there was a marketing agent or whatever, they wouldn't have used the term mining because it conjures up these images of dirty and soot and digging and energy wasting and all this kind of stuff. Really what a minor is an auditor. And I think kind of explaining it in that context is really important for people to understand.
Didier Borel - 00:17:17:
Right. As we know, the price of bitcoin is volatile. So your revenue will go up and down as the bitcoin that you might sell back into the market goes, the bitcoin price goes up and down, and you have certain amount of cost to cover. And how does it work? Are you guaranteeing some amount to the landfill operator? Are you just telling him your cost is zero to get rid of your methane, or do you give him, is there any profit share? How does that all work?
Adam Wright - 00:17:44:
Yeah, the way we generally set up agreements in the form of a profit share. And so we want to have this social aspect to the company, so we want to be providing that payment for the gas. We view this gas as a valuable asset. Then the question becomes, how do you structure that financial transaction? Rather than sort of purchasing that gas from them for a fixed cost per unit of energy, we set up a profit share. So that profit share allows us to have protection when bitcoin mining metrics are lower, but then allows the landfill operator or community to benefit from the upside. But within that profit share structure, we have basically a minimum payment. So we guarantee a minimum of anywhere from a half cent to for the energy and then a maximum payment of about four cents kilowatt hour. So that protects kind of both parties on the downside, so it protects the landfill and that they're always getting paid no matter what happens to bitcoin. And then on our side, when bitcoin mining metrics are much higher, kind of matters less what the actual price for that energy is because the margins are so high at that point. But then capping that at $0.04 kind of allows us to protect our upside, but at the same time allows that landfill to kind of participate in some of that upside potential.
Didier Borel - 00:19:20:
Okay. And in fact, to what extent did you integrate into your financial forecast? I suppose you fully integrated the housing that will come in two years and then four years later and four years later, were you conservative on the price of bitcoin, where we think the market will be and then knowing that you're going to be getting less bitcoin?
Adam Wright - 00:19:45:
I mean, of course, it's very difficult to predict the price of bitcoin and sort of come up with an accurate sort of model for what bitcoin is going to be in the future and what mining metrics are going to be in the future. We've taken a very what we feel is a conservative approach to modeling bitcoin mining in the sense that we look at it in terms of generation of mining equipment. So modern mining equipment, let's say s 19s today, we would estimate the profitability window of those to be anywhere from, let's say, five to seven years. And so we model sort of revenues as sort of a declining curve. Obviously, there's going to be bounces up and down, but on in aggregate, the revenue is generally modeled as a declining curve. And the assumption there is that regardless of what happens to bitcoin or bitcoin mining bitcoin, we predict that mining is always going to increase, the hash rate is going to increase faster than the price of bitcoin. And so therefore, margins are going to shrink over time. And so therefore, it's even more important for us to have that low cost of power so that we can kind of maintain our edge and our competitiveness kind of in the long term. And then I think it's also important to note that we're not just a bitcoin mining company. We're actively kind of using that bitcoin mining as that bridge to then integrate other uses for the electricity on the site without needing that grid connection. And I think, as I mentioned before, EV charging is a major play there. And then over time, in some cases, it may actually make sense to get into grid sales and grid connection. But we've used bitcoin mining kind of in the front or on the front end to monetize all the infrastructure. So now over time, we can then pivot into grid sales, even if that grid sales is like a lower margin activity, because we sort of basically paid for all the equipment already.
Didier Borel - 00:22:02:
Great, thank you. International expansion. I think you're a young company and there's a lot to do in the U, yes, but you already have seen like, potential use cases, people when they process palm oil, and in various countries in the world. Do you want to explain what you could see as potential sites that you could occupy?
Adam Wright - 00:22:23:
Of course. I think our mission really is to track down methane wherever it is and mitigate it. And things like carbon credits, carbon credits alone just aren't high enough to warrant or to actually provide economic incentives for international projects to come in and capture methane. You've seen reports of countries like, let's say, India or Pakistan or Sri Lanka, some of these countries that have much less stringent environmental regulations surrounding landfills or methane in general. And some of these sites are some of these places just have these massive landfills that are producing just absurd amounts of methane emissions right. Without a non governmental subsidy, which bitcoin mining is that these projects are just never going to pencil out. You're not going to just do a methane capture project in the goodness of one's heart. You need to have something in the environment or you need to have some economic incentive to do that project, whether it's carbon credits or otherwise. I think our main focus is on landfills because we feel that landfills is a very misrepresented sort of piece of the environmental puzzle. But there are also other forms of methane in animal husbandry, like dairy farming, but also in other types of organic processing. Palm oil is a good example of that. I think that there's a lot of just like oil and gas oil and gas also produces a lot of methane, but we view all sources of methane, regardless of its production, as a potential target for our company just due to its environmental factors. And I think bitcoin mining literally is the best technology that we have available today to scalably eliminate that emissions on a global scale.
Didier Borel - 00:24:36:
Basically, the simple reason being because a mining rig doesn't take much space and you can just put it anywhere, and that's it. And you produce the electricity on site from the methane, I suppose.
Adam Wright - 00:24:47:
That's right. That's right. Yeah. So in that sense, you can think of bitcoin mining as a so if I said, hey, I'm going to pay you to go around and burn all the methane that's emitted in the world, or I said, hey, all of a sudden the UN is going to provide this subsidy to get people to go out and burn their methane. People would say, yeah, that's great. We need to subsidize burning a methane. Right. Burning methane is 84 times better than letting that methane emit. So in that context, what bitcoin represents is this non governmental subsidy that allows private companies to go out and set up these methane burning installations that can serve in the place of a government or some other type of carbon credit infrastructure. And carbon credits are I'm not going to come out and be like, obviously carbon credits are fraught with it their own problems. If I produce and sell a carbon credit, then I'm giving somebody else the right to go ahead and pollute the one that's buying my carbon credits. That's offsetting their own pollution. So we don't necessarily feel that carbon credits is the way to solve the climate crisis. Obviously, it has its place. But in that context, bitcoin mining is actually sort of cleaner solution than relying entirely on carbon credits.
Didier Borel - 00:26:16:
The expression human beings are rational. When the math is simple, the math has to say simple. Otherwise it's the rule. Show me the incentives and I'll show you the results. You seem to be confirming something I've heard. Tell me if you agree with this, that sometimes people in the bitcoin world feel that are afraid that mining is becoming too centralized in certain big mining rates, and then other people will tell you, yes, but of course, one of the biggest input costs into mining is the cost of electricity. And in fact, the cheapest forms of electricity are often smaller amounts in out of the way places, off the grid places. And so other people feel that bitcoin mining will be much more autonomous. In other words, lots of little stations all over the place. That seems to be what you're describing as well. Would you agree with that?
Adam Wright - 00:27:12:
Yeah, I would agree with that. And I think over time, as energy prices change and as the grid, let's say, becomes more electrified in general, that it's going to become more and more expensive to be mining bitcoin, let's say, in front of the meter. They say there's behind the meter and in front of the meter. So if you're a mining company and you're buying power from the grid and then you're using that energy to mine bitcoin. There's going to be a time sometime in the future when I don't think anybody knows when those miners are going to sort of be priced out of the network. Right. And so they're going to be then forced that hash rate is going to be forced to search for cheaper sources of power. And I think by definition, that's going to be these scenarios where there's waste involved, and methane emissions is one of those things. And so I think that just by virtue of the economic incentives alone, that bitcoin mining will trend towards carbon neutral and even carbon negative over time. There's obviously some uncertainty about how much carbon, let's say carbon emissions that the bitcoin network produces globally. But I think that there is a very small amount of methane that would be required just because of the power of methane. There's a very small amount of methane required that you would need to capture and use for bitcoin mining to then go ahead and offset the entirety of the bitcoin network such that bitcoin network as a whole is carbon negative. And that is going to happen. There's different predictions of when that will happen in terms of when bitcoin mining and the bitcoin network becomes carbon negative. But when that does happen, anybody that is not holding bitcoin has a worse, let's say, carbon footprint than people that are holding bitcoin.
Didier Borel - 00:29:23:
Okay, great sentence there. Okay, great. But let me ask you one more question regarding the grid. So in general, you often hear that the person who produces the last marginal amount of power to the grid, the whole price of all the energy on the grid is priced off that bitcoin miners are good because they can turn on and off their mining equipment quickly. Do you think bitcoin mining has an important role to play in stabilizing electricity grids in general, and then stabilizing prices for energy in general?
Adam Wright - 00:30:02:
Yeah, I absolutely do believe that bitcoin mining has a role to play in that stabilization. I can't say that I'm an expert on the topic. Just because our energy source is behind the meters, we're not really affected by what happens on grids and how that dynamic plays out, but just by understanding the virtues of bitcoin mining as this sort of offtaker of any excess energy. I know that, for example, if you're building out a large solar installation, and that solar installation, the solar panels are producing electricity the second that they're set up. The problem is how long it takes to get that grid and interconnect put in. And so bitcoin mining can sort of be there, coexisting on site with that installation, and sort of while the grid interconnection is happening can provide that revenue for that company that was putting in that infrastructure. So that sort of in that sense, it provides again, that subsidy for the development of that infrastructure. And then in the case where let's take another example of, let's take Vespene in, let's say five years, where we have a site operating and that site is mining bitcoin, but it's also connected to the grid with a bigger build out of, let's say, solar and wind power. The grid is not going to need when the wind is blowing and the sun is shining, the grid is not going to need, let's say, other sources of power, right? So while there's this big influx of renewables in the grid bitcoin, that landfill gas still needs to get mitigated, right? So that needs to be burnt 24 7365. And so then that means that that generator needs to be spinning 24/7, 365. And so in the times where there's, let's say, less renewables on the grid, then we divert our power to the grid to help kind of stabilize and provide that base load power. But in the times where the sun is shining and wind is blowing, we then redirect that power into the bitcoin mining and sort of keep that revenue stream moving forward. In that sense, bitcoin mining provides that sort of optional off taker of that energy. And I think that can also be scaled up to larger infrastructure. I know that some of this is already kind of happening in Texas to some extent and I think that it's sort of a matter of time before it gets more widely adopted by grids in the US. And other places.
Didier Borel - 00:32:59:
Great, thank you. Basically that's all the questions I have. So thank you for answering my questions clearly and concisely. Where are you? You're doing a pilot project now. Where is the company in terms of its development? Have you already done you're already doing a pilot project and you have more coming, or do you want to explain that?
Adam Wright - 00:33:17:
Yes, of course. So our pilot project is going to be in central California. It's at a municipal public landfill site. This project is under construction currently and it's both in the procurement phase and the permitting phase. We anticipate that site to be up and running later this year. But in addition to that pilot site, we have active conversations going on with ten additional sites that are slated, would be slated to come on sort of rapidly after that pilot site is up and running. And these sites are scattered kind of all over the US. Arizona, Alabama, Florida. We're even looking at a potential project in Hawaii. I think that it's sort of a matter of time just due to just the vast amount of landfill gas that's out there and is being wasted currently. They're either flared or emitted. It's sort of a matter of time before large scale adoption happens. I think this value proposition is so clear to landfills that it's almost. A no brainer, essentially.
Didier Borel - 00:34:36:
Okay, great. So thank you very much, Adam. If people want to find out more about you or about the company, where do you want to send them?
Adam Wright - 00:34:45:
Yeah, of course. So our Twitter is Vespene Energy. So that's just V-E-S-P-E-N-E Vespene Energy, and you can find us at Vespene Energy on the web or drop us an email at justinfo at Vespene Energy and excited to interact with some of your listeners.
Didier Borel - 00:35:11:
Okay, great. I'll put those links in the Show Notes. Okay, great. Thanks very much. Thank you.
Adam Wright - 00:35:16:
Yeah, thanks very much for having me. It's been a pleasure, and good luck with you. Good luck on all your future endeavors.
Didier Borel - 00:35:22:
Yeah, you too. Great. Thank you very much.
Didier Borel - 00:35:24:
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Adam Wright - 00:38:01: